Positive PetzineChanging Methods
Hello. I'm new to this site and already have a million questions but I'll start with info first.
I live with a two and a half year old Norwegian buhund named Elsa (goes by the name of "smelly" too, and not because she stinks, but because her incessant sniffing makes me laugh). I also live with my parents. We've had Elsa since she was a pup, and have gone through obedience training and a few other courses. We're not completely happy with how our relationship with the dog has developed and are looking for changes.
She's normal; just a dog. The problems are ours. Basically, I'm the only one interested in the dog, which makes training her somewhat harder. After asking, arguing, pleading, and rationalizing it seems my parents will not take an active hand in the dog (or not much, anyways). My interest in training the dog has come and gone again and again because of the lack of support, in my opinion. But now I cannot handle the idea of the dog having a boring or restricted life because someone won't take an interest in her. Without work, that will be her life forever and I think that sounds horrible. I know she's capable of so much and if I can be a better trainer, our lives will be that much better.
So I've resumed serious training with Elsa, hoping I can be successful knowing she'll be getting some mixed messages, but I need to try anyways.
Soooo, the stage I'm at is trying to switch Elsa over from a more conventional positive training method to clicker training. We have some experience with it so it's not absolutely new. Although there's a wealth of information regarding clicker training, I am confused in many areas concerning the cross-over. Any general ideas will be appreciated.
I'll be much more specific in the future, but there's the background I suppose. I apologize if my essay was boring.
Chris
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re: Changing Methods
Hi Chris, congratulations on realising the depth of your responsibility. I had a similar epiphany myself, and as life changes, I find I'm having more. Juggling life and caring for another living creature can sometimes be a challenge, and unfortunately too many people give priority to the things which probably won't matter on their death-bed.
Switching to clicker training is much easier than some people make it out to be. You just do it. I have clients come in from various backgrounds and they all just start doing it. I don't even go over the theory any more.
Of course, it's going to be a lot easier for them because I'm there telling them when to click and setting them up for success all the way. That is where you might have trouble, so if you can find a good instructor, spend the money and join the class, even if it's just for a month or two.
Clicker training has a few specific skills that other styles of training don't have, and it's not something you can master quickly - however you can get immediate results and the risk of getting anything wrong is absolutely minimal (unlike some other methods where a mistake could be VERY costly in terms of your dog's behavior and his relationship with you).
If you jump in, ask questions, watch YouTube videos, and follow a good plan of action (I recommend the Training Levels at www.dragonflyllama.com ) you can't go too far wrong.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com
Thanks Aidan, it's a relief
Thanks Aidan, it's a relief to hear it put that way. I've already started, and yes she's already caught on. I suppose a lot of my confusion comes from what to do with the specific training she already understands to some degree: sit, down, stay, come, heel, leave it, drop it, go to bed... she has a great handle on most of these, but part of the reason I've decided to switch to clicker training is the hesitation or complete disregarding that she shows for these.
Should I take the instructions for these literally and go back to square one, or figure out a way to carry on from where she already understands?
Thanks,
Chris
re: Changing Methods
Hi Chris, if you're following the Training Levels program then always start at Level 1. Test it out, if she passes then move on to Level 2, otherwise work on Level 1 according to the instructions in the book.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com
clickers, and zen
Hello Aidan. Maybe you could clarify this for me.
In general, when do I stop using the clicker? I understand when to use it, or even reuse it to further train an aspect of something (duration, etc.). But when precisely do I stop using it?
For instance, Elsa is pretty reliable when called to come. In the house, yard, even a big park or forest or conservation area. Pretty reliable though, not reliable. So I haven't let her off the leash anywhere like that anymore until the recall is built up better. How should I implement the clicker, if at all? Distractions are the problem with the recall, so where do I go back to to move forward?
Also, a question about zen. I had this presented to me slightly differently, but is still much the same. Elsa is quite good at it. Yet, she doesn't seem to care or understand at all in the face of certain distractions. Once again, where do I go back to to move forward?
The amount of time spent training with distractions is a lot lower than I would like. I'd imagine a lot of problems result from this. I have found it difficult, however, to find a middle ground to make progress in. It seems I can get her attention in various situations, and then there's a line that is crossed and it isn't possible anymore.
A good example is sitting on the front porch. She feels the need to bark at other dogs. I watch them coming closer, and am just waiting for the explosion. Initially she is quiet and sitting. It's like watching an invisible line get crossed. These dogs are on the sidewalk on the other side of the street, not ten feet away. I would usually put my foot on the leash long before this happened, so when it did happen, she already had nowhere to go. She'll jump and lunge and bark. Replace dog with squirrel and you have the same thing. It's confusing because I feel like she somewhat understands that to get something she needs to let it go... I've seen dogs or squirrels or whatever approaching and many times(not always) she'll become alert but then sit, with the leash loose. Then one of three things happens: One, if the distraction is already a fair distance away and continues to move away, she may lose interest. Two, distraction gets closer, trips the invisible line and Elsa explodes (like on the porch- lunge, jump, bark...). Three, I move forward or even somewhat sideways, which results in an explosion.
Oh and I can't get her to stop barking because that's another problem I am having which has not been remedied (by the way, the emails about barking... can or should I reply to those?).
Should these have been two different topics? Sorry, if that's the case just let me know (blogs and forums are unfamiliar to me).
I also apologize if this is too long-winded. Let me know.
Thanks for your help,
Chris.
re: clickers, and zen
>> In general, when do I stop using the clicker? <<
I only use a clicker when, as a tool, it makes the job at hand more efficient. For recalls, I would use a clicker very early on when shaping the response, or to polish up specific criteria (like, ignoring a food distraction, or a faster response).
Does that answer this question?
>>Distractions are the problem with the recall, so where do I go back to to move forward?<<
Good question. Normally you would progress through distractions that you can control first. In my classes we set-up the dog to do recalls past people with food or toys, balls being rolled, then thrown, through obstacles, past other dogs etc
Obviously, this is easier in a class but use whatever resources you have at your disposal. One helper can make a big difference with food and toys. If you have a dog park nearby, practice recalls outside the park some distance from the other dogs.
Find some way to get distance from the distraction then gradually move closer. In most populated areas this is not difficult.
>> Yet, she doesn't seem to care or understand at all in the face of certain distractions. Once again, where do I go back to to move forward?<<
Another good question, you are looking in the right direction.
Keep the rate of reinforcement very high, keep her, as Sue Ailsby calls it, "in the game". If she is not interested and too easily distracted you either need to step back from the distraction, increase your rate of reinforcement, or make the reinforcer more valuable (i.e do it when she is hungry)
I think one of the best predictors of success with almost any exercise is when the dog can stay "in the game" in almost any situation. They need to "learn to learn to earn". I quite happily recommend short periods of food deprivation followed by frequent opportunities to earn food through work, and at times I recommend 100% feeding on contingency. A week or so of this can really get your dog interested in working for food.
Making "learn to earn" a part of everyday life can really help to get your dog to stay "in the game".
>> A good example is sitting on the front porch. She feels the need to bark at other dogs. I watch them coming closer, and am just waiting for the explosion. Initially she is quiet and sitting. It's like watching an invisible line get crossed.<<
A great observation! The question is - why are you WAITING for the explosion? This is the time to take action, get her attention, get her in the game, ask her to do something else. Teach her exactly what you would like her to do in this situation.
Even better if you have some control over the other dog. Have a friend with a dog help out with their dog on-leash if you can arrange it. Keep just a few feet behind that "imaginary line".
The "imaginary line" will move closer as you work on this, until it is no longer there.
>> It's confusing because I feel like she somewhat understands that to get something she needs to let it go...<<
She may, but it sounds like she doesn't know what she is supposed to do instead. The only way she will know is if you can teach her, hopefully the above gives you some idea of how to do this?
>> Oh and I can't get her to stop barking because that's another problem I am having which has not been remedied (by the way, the emails about barking... can or should I reply to those?).<<
Put it in another blog, that would be easiest for me and anyone else visiting the site I think.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com
Thanks for replying to my
Thanks for replying to my essay.
I do have a bit better idea about the clicker. As for the porch scenario, I'll have to see what I can make happen. Although she isn't barking or pulling or both until a certain point, she is usually unresponsive to anything. I'll put some thought into it.
I have some other questions but they are straying further off topic, so I will ask them elsewhere.
Thanks again for your help!
Chris.